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Why all this mess with the hotshoes.. Come on Sony :(

Discussion in 'Sony Alpha E-Mount Cameras' started by alaios, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    Hi all,

    this is my last post here (I am not gonna keep flooding the forum here on this).

    I am about to buy a flash for my a6000 and I wanted to be able to put my flash off camera at sides by using a simple cable (that would support ttl too)

    In the market the cables are of the order of 25 euros

    http://www.amazon.de/Pixel-TTL-Blit...qid=1425154077&sr=8-2&keywords=Blitz+Sony+20M

    Now the problem is that if you see the link above, that this cable it does not look that it would be supported by my a6000. Someone said that I would have to buy the adapters

    this one: http://www.amazon.de/Pixel-TF-324-M...e=UTF8&qid=1425153778&sr=8-3&keywords=ADP-MAA

    costs 25 euros (the inverse adapter costs the same)

    So the cable + 2* the adapters == 75 euros! Just for having a ttl flash at 1 meter distant apart from the camera! Even worst I did not find anyone having done that, which means that I might spent 75 for a non working solution.

    Others suggested me to skip the cable solution and buy the 120 euros for the flash that can function as wireless controller...

    I find this to be a bad joke from sony.. 75 euros or 120 euros for just having ttl support in an off camera flash that is just one meter away from a camera is a very bad joke.

    Yes there are others triggers but all are in the order of 80 euros or even more, and I would always find that the cable is by far the most portable reliable way (no batteries, more durable when falling down and so on..)

    Can someone help me ?

    Regards

    Alex
     
  2. Bugleone

    Bugleone TalkEmount Veteran

    210
    Aug 21, 2011
    Several things come to mind;......

    Although I don't respect or like Sony as a company,..and DO agree that they frequently adopt poor business ethics,...this is NOT really Sony's fault. The cable for TTL has several strands and has to be manufactured as such, so 25 Euro is hardly exorbitant by todays standards.....

    However, the a6000 appears to use a standard (ISO ?) flash shoe and connections. so, take a look at Ebay for MUCH cheaper alternatives....once you have a worksing system you can then decide if you want to invest in more expensive cabling.

    Also, do you really NEED ttl?......the real beauty of digital is that there is no film to 'waste', so just use ordinary manual flash and work out your own optimum exposure in distance/aperture/iso. If you invest in a flash unit with adjustable power range then all kinds of pssibilities are available to you as you can turn the power up or down for situation and avoid over illumination etc. This is MUCH more versatile and useful than ttl,..and once you are familiar with it, less trouble. To make a simple (non ttl) connection, all you need is;......hot shoe adaptor with plug socket (or cable already fitted).....cable with co-ax plugs either end,.......and, flash shoe adaptor for bottom of flash foot (needs to have tripod bush for best use)

    In addition, you could take a look are the many kits on Ebay with RADIO synch for connection flash remotely to camera. These are currently inexpensive and offer the advantage of NO cable to get in the way....they work quite well and some offerings have two receivers so that you can use sophisticated flash set ups with two main lights......add a slave unit (or more) and complex lighting set-ups are possible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2015
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  3. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    486
    Nov 21, 2014
    For what its worth Phottix is promising wireless TTL for Sony later this year.

    http://flashhavoc.com/nissin-air-1-commander-di700a-flash-announced/

    But I tend to agree with Bugleone that TTL has limited use off camera especially with multiple flashes. I suspect alaios wants to hold the camera in one hand and the flash in the other (or something like that) so perhaps TTL is a good idea.
     
  4. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    That is something I can try. I am not sure though that the information can be passed through that cable. Lets see
    Otherwise I am not gonna explain why ttl is so important :)
     
  5. Amamba

    Amamba TalkEmount All-Pro

    Apr 13, 2013
    SE MI
    Sony is the only major (relatively speaking) photo company that takes mirrorless seriously. So we're stuck ;) for now.

    Canon finally came up with a half decent body (M3, even though no EVF, at least has other goodies making it closer to Nex-5) but they don't even plan on selling it in North America.

    Oly, Fuji etc. are too small and too pricey.

    Samsung is interesting but imho needs a couple more years to mature.

    In all honesty, if Canon decided to be serious about mirrorless I would consider switching back. I loved their skin tones and it's often a struggle to get decent skin tones with Sony. Plus they are notoriously good at making great quality yet not overly expensive glass (EF85/1.8 USM, EF55-250IS, the new-ish 11-22, the $100 50/1.8 that produced super sharp photos and decent bokeh as long as you avoided OOF highlights). But they are clearly afraid to sabotage their own Rebel sales. So I am stuck with Sony for the foreseable future. And this means dealing with their (many) idiosyncrasies.
     
  6. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    194
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    The only out of the box solution right now due to the newness MIS shoe you have on your A6000 is as follows:

    Sony FA-CS1M adapter shoe on the camera. This has a front connector which uses the old Minolta cables connector.

    Sony FA-MC1AM ( or Minolta Cable CD) cable connected to the FA-CS1M and depending on the flash you choose:

    Direct connection to Sony HVL-F60M, F58AM or F56AM or Minolta 5600HSD.
    Or add another FA-CS1M to allow the transmission of data between flash and camera under your flash that i hope has MIS connectors

    I am pretty sure other camera brands are also expensive to achieve this since there is very little demand for such a set-up since the advent of WL TTL

    MIS shoe adapters have started to be available from chinese manufacturers but few transmit TTL as of now

    You did not mention which flash you have in mind. It could have an impact on the possible solutions.
     
  7. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    Thanks for the answers. I am buying the nissin i40 for sony (actually I ordered it)
     
  8. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    Hi,
    I see that wireless TTL has advanced but the cheaper wireless TTL controlles is the 20M flash that costs 120 euros...
    Regardless of the wireless (that relies on batteries) a cable would be always a nice back to have
    now lets see the prices on the german amazon

    50 euros:
    http://www.amazon.de/Sony-FACS1M-SY...8&qid=1425283102&sr=8-1&keywords=Sony+FA-CS1M

    FA-MC1AM: I could not find it

    50 euros:
    http://www.ebay.de/itm/Sony-FA-CS1M...64?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item5d4fcd9148

    so far I am at 100 euros with no cable at all..
     
  9. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
  10. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    194
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    No, and the main picture in the ad is most likely wrong. Look at the smaller one with the single receiver just below. These are with the Minolta /Sony shoe
    They allow TTL with the Sony shoe as pass-through on the trigger that is mounted on camera with a flash mounted over it only. All remote flashes are Manual only and are also Minolta/Sony shoe.

    To my knowledge, you could buy some with Canon or Nikon shoes and if you mix them in a system, they won't work together.
     
  11. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    thanks michelb for your time spent answering me... So bad camera turns a6000 for me. So many reviews and none did not write about the bad non existing flash accesories.

    Do you think that you can provide me a cable for b and h or amazon.com that could work on my a6000 and nissin i40 flash? The point is to have ttl with out of camera flash.
    I found this one for example
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/749824-REG/Vello_OCS_S3_TTL_Off_Camera_Flash_Cord.html

    but the shoe does not seem to be the same with the a6000. Would an adapter solve my problem and if yes which one?
    I will be on weekend in states so if you can answer me soon I Will order those.
    I would like to thank you for your reply
    Regards
    Alex
     
  12. xXx1

    xXx1 TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 15, 2013
    I don't think off camera ttl flash is very practical. Definitely it isn't going to solve any problems when dealing with multiple flashes. If you want ttl off camera flash adapters for Sony old hot shoe are available. One transmitter, one receiver and adapters will cost something like 300 €.

    Pair of rf-603 II will cost something like 40 euro. You need a adapter for these as the new hot shoe isn't compatible with Canon hot shoe either.
     
  13. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    194
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    I was actually thinking of such a combo for you.
    One Sony ADP-MAA adapter mounted on camera, this Off brand cable mounted on the adapter and a Sony ADP-AMA adapter at the end on which you could mount the flash. Both adapters are about 30$.
    I think i have a Vello cable like you show. I hurt my shoulder and have trouble handling any camera stuff that requires both hands so i could probably find that cable and pull out my adapters to test with Sony flashes i have ( HVL-F20, F32 and F43M) but i don't anticipate being able to do this until the week-end.
     
  14. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
  15. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    194
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    Yes, they would be the ones. But let me test them first since having 2 adapters on the same line of cables could have weird behavior
     
  16. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    Sure. I am waiting for a green light to order or not :)
    Alex
     
  17. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    194
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    Tested my Vello cable ( Sony/Minolta iISO Autolock shoes at both ends ) on my A7r using different combinations of adapters with HVL-F20M, HVL-F32M and HVL-F43M
    All in A mode, 400 ISO testing at different apertures (f2.8, F5.6, F11 and F22 with the F32 and F43) to confirm exposure consistancy.

    Using Sony ADP-MAA adapter on camera and Sony ADP-AMA (and FA-CS1M) at the flash end.

    All works OK ( I was worried of the HVL-F20 and 32 since these can sometimes have issues on WL remote triggers). I was also afraid that the fact of using 2 adapters on the same line of contact may actually weaken some signals to the point of not working.

    The Vello cable is quite stiff and scary to extend over about 24 inches ( approx 60cm) when on camera with flash hand-held. I could force it up to 34-36 inches ( 90cm) in my arms but would be worried of damaging the adapters or of losing contact by stretching that much.

    To compare, i also tested same combination using a combo of old Minolta OC-1100 Cable and OS-1100 shoe ( they often come together on eBay at about 25-30$ ) and all works OK also. Normal since this is the real original the Vello tried to copy. However the OC-1100 cable allows more distance from camera since it is more flexible. I measured that i can easily extend to about 44 inches away ( approx 1,2 meter). In addition, should i need extra distance, and since the Minolta Sony cable system is modular ( the Off camera cable is ended by a connector where you can connect either a shoe or an extension cable ) adding a Minolta Cable EX would allow another 39 inches or more ( another 1 meter ) of extension. These cables/shoes are the exact same as the Sony FA-CC1AM ( Minolta OC-1100 cable), Sony FA-EC1AM ( Minolta Cable EX ) and Sony FA-CS1AM ( Minolta OS-1100 off camera shoe)

    Another set-up that would work and did when i tested, ADP-MAA adapter on camera, Minolta OC-1100 and Sony FA-CS1M (do not confuse with previously mentioned FA-CS1AM). This would be a little more expensive but could eventually let you mount one flash on camera and through a Minolta Cable CD ( Sony FA-MC1AM) connect to another flash using same set-up. and with proper selection of adapter at the other end, you could have 2 TTL flashes.

    So this combination seems to work and if it does not work with your Nissin, it will be because the Nissin is reverse engineered and does not have all the proper communications for the Sony system. Some users of slightly older Sigma flashes will understand what i mean.

    For those interested, i also tried multi adapters. ADP-MAA on camera,Minolta FS-1100, Old Cable OC and the flash confirmation keeps flashing in the viewfinder and no flash is emitted. This is why i was worried using multi adapters may not work but as long as there is no more than 1 at each end, everything seems to work.

    Another thing i tried for those who want to save money, i have this MIS to Alpha adapter that is a copy of the sony ADP-MAA coming from a Chinese company called Travor and its model no is HC-513. I tried it but it kept on losing contact so sometimes it would work and sometimes the camera would not see the flash and would not go to X synch speed ( in A Mode it was seeing only ambient light so shutter speed would go down dramatically) and would not emit a flash. Moving the flash around would give back communication but this is an unreliable way to do things. Save money, increase the unreliability.

    See here most of the Minolta adapters and shoes to see what they look like:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/55173440@N08/sets/72157645281460511/
     
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  18. alaios

    alaios TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2013
    Düsseldorf
    Alex
    Wow!!! Wow!! (one more time)! Wow!
    The emount community should honor you. Really thanks for what you provided us today.
    Especially commenting how far the flash off camera can go

    Now I have to see which would be the cheapest combination and where to try to buy these. I am travelling tomorrow morning but I will write back once I land in new orleans

    Regards

    Alex