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Urgent question about being a second shutter and agreement terms...

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by shaolin95, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    Hello guys!
    So I am going to be the second shooter on a Wedding on Friday ( my first time).
    Now the first thing he mentioned is common about not posting my images on blogs/facebook until he delivers the final images.

    The second part is what I am not so sure about even though it makes sense in a way.
    He wants all my RAW images so he can edit them in the same style as his to deliver to the client then i am free to post as long as I mention him.

    So, first I am shooting with my A7rii and he will be shooting his Canon 60D.
    I was thinking I was going to be providing him my edited images for him to share the ones he felt were more apropiate but perhaps this is common practice.
    What do you guys think?



    PS looks like common practice and I will be able to post on my blog, portfolio etc after the work has been delivered.

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  2. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    I've never shot professionally, but it seems to me that you're working for him here, not the couple, so he gets to set whatever rules make sense to him. And having access to your raw files makes a lot of sense if he wants to make sure that the overall look of the images (WB, etc.) is consistent. The fact that he's letting you keep the frames you shoot seems pretty generous to me. He could justifiably claim all of the rights to your shots.

    But like I said, I've never shot professionally. So... free advice, and worth every penny.
     
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  3. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    From what I have read, looks pretty common and some dont even let you use on your portfolio so looks like pretty flexible to me.
     
  4. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    The couple of times I have helped out my sister-in-law was about the same. I gave her my RAW's and she delivered to the couple the images as a set.

    Just make sure you keep rights to publish independently, especially if you are trying to build your own portfolio.

    And remember, this is their shoot. Follow their lead.

    Sent from my SM-N920P using TalkEmount mobile app
     
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  5. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Since the photographer is hiring you as his helper and not the couple as their photographer, wanting access to your raw files sounds normal. I know Its not very nice to hand over all your nice work but I guess that's how things work in these situations...

    Good luck with the shoot ;)
     
  6. 1950n

    1950n New to TalkEmount

    7
    Mar 20, 2016
    Doesn't sound very friendly. I suspect he is paying you then.


    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
     
  7. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    No pay just experience although the fact that he is taking a 50mm and 85mm only with an aps-c body is kind of strange as on aps-c that will not be very wide at all for ceremony and groups shots. I wonder if by the end of the day my shots will be the bulk of what he uses. Not trying to be arrogant just logically analyzing the gear I will be using vs the one he will be using.
    Anyways I just want to at least get one 2nd shooter experience in my book then be able to charge at least something from that point on unless it's somebody extremely experienced from whom I can learn of course.
    I am so eager to be there already
     
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  8. quezra

    quezra TalkEmount Top Veteran

    916
    Aug 22, 2012
    It's weird, I'd almost certainly imagine someone who negotiated a wedding contract with two photographers would have included extra for the second photog in the price. Which means you should be paid something, even if it's relatively little. It's not like he's going to be actively mentoring you during the event (hardly time for that, it'll only be - "hey go take that shot").

    That said, I don't think under these circumstances, that handing over the raws is a big deal. You have to take some hits to get experience. I was relatively lucky in that I got asked by friends to shoot my first weddings, and my only 'hit' was to be paid far less than what I was giving them was worth. But they were my friends, and just recently they asked me for more copies of the photobook I did for them which I am very happy about because it means they still are really happy about what I gave them.

    I can guarantee that your Canon shooter is going to have grainy photos, and yours are going to be crisp, and he's going to have to add noise to yours to maintain the 'look' :p
     
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  9. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    Yeah from what I have seen he will need to add a ton of it
     
  10. JonathanF2

    JonathanF2 TalkEmount Veteran

    255
    Aug 16, 2014
    A little harsh, but sounds like quality control. On top of that it's his access, so you posting pictures while mentioning him as a photographer just seems more like a courtesy. I'd say it's reasonable. You gain experience and portfolio material. If you have no experience with this type of shooting, I'd say learn from it and monetize from it as soon as possible. Honestly though, the guy should kick you back a little something even if it's gas money or a meal. Unless someone is completely incompetent, I usually pay anyone who helps me on shoots.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
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  11. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    Agree, if this is a paid gig you should get some compensation.



    Sent from my GT-N5110 using TalkEmount mobile app
     
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  12. bdbits

    bdbits TalkEmount Veteran

    400
    Sep 10, 2015
    Bob
    Just from googling the topic a bit, second shooters are normally paid a nominal fee for the gig. It also sounds like some of them will expect you to be almost a photographer's assistant. While it is expected you will provide them your RAWs, it sounds like it is also common practice to allow you to post with credits along the lines of "by (you) for (their name/studio)". In any case, it was noted and as a former freelancer in another field I agree you should get the details and right to post in writing. Otherwise your work becomes a "work for hire" and you will have little or no ability to use your images.
     
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  13. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    When I did mine it was done as a favor, (she bought me lunch), but ya, normally you should be getting a cut.

    Sent from my SM-N920P using TalkEmount mobile app
     
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  14. adwb

    adwb TalkEmount Regular

    127
    Sep 30, 2015
    Bristol UK
    Alistair
    1. You should get paid
    2. Asking for raw is common it makes ordering by time and therefore batch editing that section of the day easier.
    3. Requiring you to wait till they are published (approved by the couple) is reasonable
    4. Nothing untoward with those requests pretty standard
     
  15. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    Ok so bringing this back up for more advice.
    It has been a month and one day since I did this shoot and I have YET to post my images. Basically last time I asked her like 7 days ago she "thought" they were still in the honey moon so she has not delivered the photos yet.
    Maybe I am not very patient but after a month I was hoping to be able to show my photos already on my Flickr. I dont even have a contact with the bride/groom so is not like they can see my photos right now anyways.
    I just feel frustrated that I did not get any money for the job which I knew ahead of time, but is like I am not getting ANYTHING from it currently. I mean I was at the location 30mins head of time and she showed up LATE. So I was the one taking the detail photos and empty rooms before guests arrive and the family members saw me there kind of saving her ass from being late and looking unprofessional.
    I used a 16-35mm, 70-200mm 2.8 and 55mm for very different views and perspectives during the ceremony not to mention the clear superiority of the A7rii (not bragging just trying to convey why I feel frustrated), so to not be able to show my work after a month its disappointing.
    Heck, she didnt even bring the contract she said she would bring so legally there is nothing binding me to not post the images already but I am man of my word....but that does not mean I feel happy with the current situation.
    What do you guys think? :/
     
  16. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    The stuff they don't tell you about having a photography business, (or any self-run business), can be overwhelming. Many fail because they don't have business sense, (my Dad).
     
  17. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    I don't think you don't owe her anything, Gabriel. She didn't bring a contract, she showed up late, and she doesn't respond to your inquiries. She sounds like a flake, and not like someone you're going to want to work with in the future anyway. So my advice: send her a note thanking her for the experience, and informing her that you're going to start using your images for your own promotional purposes. I bet the bride and groom couldn't care less.

    I've been running my own (non-photography) business for 26 years now, and have had to burn a few bridges along the way, usually because the client or co-worker was more trouble than they were worth. Unless you can imagine needing something from her in the future, just move on, and don't look back.
     
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  18. shaolin95

    shaolin95 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    942
    Jul 3, 2013
    That is exactly my line of thinking. I dont really feel like working with her again because well I didnt find like I can learn anything from here as our styles are completely different and while she was friendly and easy to work with, the reality is, a business demands professionalism and discipline and I dont see it here. I texted her again yesterday. If I do not hear from her today, I will go ahead and do that and for sure her name wont be mentioned at all on my images.
    Thanks!
     
  19. adwb

    adwb TalkEmount Regular

    127
    Sep 30, 2015
    Bristol UK
    Alistair
    From a litigation point if view it would be in your best interests to get permission from the couple, it could be she has not even supplied them proofs yet , as it all sounds a bit flakey to me.
    You can I'm sure get hold of the couple through the venue. And see what they say?
    In 20 years of weddings I never had trouble with my seconds , mind you in the days of film I never needed one, it's only now with the expectation of a shot list that one person cannot fulfill that you even need two.
     
  20. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    i think that you actually did get a lot from the shoot, because it surely must have been a good learning experience.

    it also gave you options for your portfolio, in the event that you want to do this on a pro basis... no wedding photography company wants to hire an unproven shooter who doesn't have experience shooting weddings, with a portfolio to prove it.

    you gave your word that you wouldn't post your pics ahead of hers? if so, don't break that, the internet can be a very small world.