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The Mirrorless War (yt link)

WNG

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Competition is always good.

My issue though is that mirrorless systems tend to get pretty pricey. As a prospective new photographer, it would be pretty hard to convince me to buy into a $3000 system when I can get a competent DLSR for $800.

Even now as an ardent mirrorless fan and advocate, the prices on the E-Mounts can get daunting and hard to justify. I love my $600 A6000. I also love the new A6500, but doubling the price is just not worth it right now.

Well, rumors of a a6700 seem valid and I think for Sony to wow the APS-C market, it's going to pack in the desired features users and critics have ranted about the a6500.
I think it will have the Z battery, thus a new body. The new body means the addition of a flip out full touch screen. We may see the intro of an all new touch interface operating system. Expecting it to be an APS-C version of the A9 stacked sensor design. With it comes silent shutter with no black out, 12-15 fps and no rolling shutter. Possibly pixel-shift.
Of course, 4K video options will be improved and possibly no 30-minute limit. And two card slots. Being the top model, expect it to be pricey, but justified.

With a new gen body, it would make logical sense to use it in polycarbonate form as a possible replacement for the long-in-the-tooth, a6000. An a6100 can replace both a6000 and a6300 from their line. Z battery, flip screen touch interface, 4K, a6300 sensor and EVF, 1 UHS-II card slot. USB-C, improved AF with latest Eye AF, improved buffer, mic/headphone jacks. A Canon M50 killer. And a sensible upgrade for a6000 users not interested in paying for an a6500 or new a6700.

Sony would control this segment of the APS-C market, as quezra points out.
 

quezra

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Canon FF is coming soon. Nokishita has some real cool leaks. The 28-70/2 looks intriguing, but I'm sure the price and size will quickly make me lose interest. Their 24-105 appears to be a bit heavier than Sony's, which I already feel is a bit on the heavy side (for my comfort). Anyway, they look like they'll be putting the Nikon launch to shame.

More intriguingly, Panasonic appears to be jumping into the FF game. I wonder how the mount will work with MFT. A longer flange distance so the FF lenses can work on MFT with an adapter? Or keeping thin for adaptability with the existing universe of other FF lenses? Could be intriguing there too.
 

Jefenator

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Sony had this [sub $5K FF MILC] market completely to themselves for almost 5 years and now in the span of a month, there are going to be 3 new strong competitors. It's exciting but almost a little too much to try and keep track of!
I should probably just try to tune most of it out - and yet I can't look away. :rolleyes-20:
 

quezra

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Thinking about it, I kind of worry for Nikon. Canon have the dominant market share, and will easily tap into that. Sony have the headstart. Panasonic will likely share the tech across video and stills, and they are very very strong on video. That leaves Nikon with a high price niche strategy and no APS-C to spread the R&D costs around. And while Nikon FF is bigger than Sony FF, how many will be willing to be early adopters?

It is exciting, but I think that there are some very high stakes involved here. Someone might just over-commit and end up crashing and burning in a few years' time.
 

JonathanF2

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Thinking about it, I kind of worry for Nikon. Canon have the dominant market share, and will easily tap into that. Sony have the headstart. Panasonic will likely share the tech across video and stills, and they are very very strong on video. That leaves Nikon with a high price niche strategy and no APS-C to spread the R&D costs around. And while Nikon FF is bigger than Sony FF, how many will be willing to be early adopters?

It is exciting, but I think that there are some very high stakes involved here. Someone might just over-commit and end up crashing and burning in a few years' time.

I think Nikon will be fine. Sony's actually in a tougher position now that the big two are in the game. I already tested the Nikon Z cameras and while it's no A7III killer, I think the system will have long term potential. It's going to be a solid platform to build from. The APS-C market is shrinking and being taken over by smartphones. The future of photography is in the high end and FF.
 

WNG

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I don't agree that Sony is in a tougher position. Competition is a good thing and it's not a situation that Sony is a stranger to, ie. PlayStation vs. XBox, etc.
Their head start and technology lead, plus being the biggest sensor manufacturer, and the broad 3rd party lens support, all lead them to continued growth and profitability.
Not concerned for Canon, they are huge and in the black. But Nikon's camera division has been bleeding red. And they are smaller. I hope they will be a market success for photography's sake. I have no doubt the Z7 and Z6 (and the pending Z9 with dual card slots) will sell out regardless. But I have no interest in switching to Nikon or Canon for incremental improvements that don't make a sizeable impact to my photography.

I'm also concerned for Pentax. What a major legacy to lose if Ricoh deems their camera division is a lost. Copiers make money, Pentax hasn't.
I would buy a mirrorless version of their K1 though. Now that's how you build a tough-ass camera. I wouldn't stress over getting one wet like I do with my Sonys caught in a storm. Heck, it's so rugged you can beat a mugger off with it like a mace, and then hose off the blood and continue on shooting! :D
 

davect01

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I think Nikon will be fine. Sony's actually in a tougher position now that the big two are in the game. I already tested the Nikon Z cameras and while it's no A7III killer, I think the system will have long term potential. It's going to be a solid platform to build from. The APS-C market is shrinking and being taken over by smartphones. The future of photography is in the high end and FF.


This was clearly meant to keep Nikon owners than to attract others system owners. That they made a camera several generations behind the latest Sony FF offerings is disappointing.

Sony has always been on the outside. They were for the longest time that electronics company that makes quirky cameras. But in the FF market, Sony has proven itself to be a formidable, top-notch system.
 

quezra

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Sony is only in a tough position for those who buy based on brand loyalty, rather than those who buy based on trying and testing for themselves. Their headstart in the game puts them in the unusual position of having the better native lens lineup.

How much of the enthusiast/professional market is like the former (brand loyalists) is the biggest risk to Sony, but I'd say they've had a harder time attracting Canon than Nikon shooters, as the former segment tend to be comfortable with the everyone-else-is-doing-it-so-I-can't-be-far-wrong strategy, and go for market leaders. The latter segment are a fickle bunch (myself included) and may jump ship if the continuing innovation doesn't keep pace.
 

quezra

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EOS R launches...
With giant lenses
Already leaked but just to confirm:
  • 28-70/2 (over 3 lbs/1.4 kg)
  • 50/1.2 (a mere 2 lbs/950 g)
  • 24-105/4 (1.5 lbs/700 g - Sony's is 663g/1.4lbs and I think that's too big)
  • 35/1.8 (0.67 lbs/300g - I love how Canon and Nikon are utterly SHAMING Sony for trying to duck this FL/aperture forever)
Yeah, uh this is a system for people who like their cameras YUUGE
 

WNG

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At a glance....
EOS R : $2300 USD RF to EF adapters(3): $100-250.
30 Mp CMOS sensor
No IBIS
1 SD UHS-II card
8 fps burst, but 5fps if you want AF-C.
3.7Mp EVF
2.1Mp flippy LCD touchscreen
-6 EV but at f/1.2
4K 4-2-2 10 bit C-log external only
4K-30 1.7 crop 1080-60 720-120
5,600 'focus points'* 100% vertical, 80% horizontal coverage * this seems more a marketing ploy of claiming the the size of the focus box placement.
A real vertical battery grip.

Note: That $3000 28-70 f/2 beast doesn't have Image Stabilization. Nor does the EOS R. Hmmm. I can only surmise that this lens is meant for a higher level model of the R line to come with IBIS.
BTW, the 50mm f/1.2L also doesn't have IS.
 

JonathanF2

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This was clearly meant to keep Nikon owners than to attract others system owners. That they made a camera several generations behind the latest Sony FF offerings is disappointing.

The Z camera isn't that far behind. I'd rate AF performance around an A7II 1/2. The big plus is having 100% compatibility with every AF-S Nikon lens.
 

Tipton

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I'm kind of astounded that the Canon R doesn't have IBIS. Although that camera kills the original A7, I suppose.

Edit: No USB charging, and you could get stabilized lenses so I guess the original A7 actually wins.
 
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JonathanF2

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Ok Canon R does close the shutter when you turn it off. That's pretty awesome for a mirrorless camera. Says the guy who finally cleaned his sensor last week.

The Nikon Z also does the same thing. What's weird is how similar Nikon and Canon made their cameras. I wonder if there was some sort of off-the-books beer and sake powwow between Canon and Nikon engineers? :D
 
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davect01

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I'm kind of astounded that the Canon R doesn't have IBIS. Although that camera kills the original A7, I suppose.

Edit: No USB charging, and you could get stabilized lenses so I guess the original A7 actually wins.


Both the new Nikon and Canon FF Mirrorless cameras are several generations behind the latest Sony. Blows my mind.

My only thought is that they are simply there to keep current owners from fleeing to Sony and will get better.
 

JonathanF2

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Both the new Nikon and Canon FF Mirrorless cameras are several generations behind the latest Sony. Blows my mind.

My only thought is that they are simply there to keep current owners from fleeing to Sony and will get better.

I'd say Nikon got most of it right first time around. AF is above the A7II, slightly behind the A7III. Ergonomics and EVF are spot on. Menu system is setup exactly like a Nikon DSLR. The XQD memory is fast, despite the smaller buffer. The A7III buffer is larger, but it takes longer to write to the SD memory card.

Can't comment on the Canon R, but there's still a lot going for these cameras mainly full compatibility with their respective DSLR mount lenses.
 
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