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Sony A7Rii Weather Resistance being challenged.

Discussion in 'Sony Alpha E-Mount Cameras' started by WNG, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
    Has anyone have come across anything like this with their Sony A7 bodies? Specially, the A7Rii?
    This poor dedicated Sony photographer from Mallorca upgraded to one some 6 months ago.
    And it stopped working and this is what was found. The camera has not been wet or seen water, just handled regularly. She does live by the sea.
    Apparently, Sony is refusing to honor the warranty! I feel pretty bad for her, since she made the plunge to upgrade to the R2 and G Master lenses.

    28031739394_eb4a5e59dc_h. Sony A7rll. Very big problem with condensation and moisture inside the camera. Do not covered under the warranty. Camera six months and never peed water. It turned out from the condensation of my eyes, my hands, and from the fact that I breathe. by Viki Velcheva, on Flickr
     
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  2. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Wow that's sad indeed :(
    I don't think I ever read anything similar for an A7xxx body...
     
  3. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
  4. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB TalkEmount Regular

    145
    Feb 9, 2016
    Cincinnati, OH
    Bob
    Two thoughts.
    1. It's interesting that the corrosion is where your nose/mouth are near the camera.
    2. Odds would say that there is someone somewhere who will get their equipment wet and not confess, then grind their ax.

    .
     
  5. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    This. I can't see that kind of corrosion happening in any atmosphere that I've ever been in.
     
  6. pbizarro

    pbizarro TalkEmount Veteran

    349
    Nov 24, 2014
    Portugal
    Condensation from breathing, or from very humid air, could make it inside the camera, especially when transitioning into/from air conditioned environments.

    Other than that, maybe the camera was indeed subjected to salt water?
     
  7. quezra

    quezra TalkEmount Top Veteran

    916
    Aug 22, 2012
    <Edited> This is a story that has been around for 2 years. He is pretty much the only one to have complained about this, which is odd given that if it really is dampness, countries with high humidity like Singapore should have huge reports of the same.

    The trail of the corrosion looks very much like water ingress rather than the uniform attack of humidity.
     
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  8. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    484
    Nov 21, 2014
    Unfortunately I have had similar problems. I live in Thailand - mostly in Bangkok - which also has high temperatures and humidity like Mallorca. I do have a house in Phuket too and salt in the air certainly makes matters it worse - indoor electronic products suffer and they never go outside.

    My first problem was with my A7r (this has little to do with moisture) but there is a point. I got caught out in a heavy rain storm and the camera got wet. The next day it wouldnt switch on. I sent it into Sony and they said the shutter button connections had corroded and replaced them. (Rain had never been a problem with my Olympuses). The reason I mention this is 'once bitten twice shy'. When I got my A7ii I made absolutely certain that a drop of rain never touched it.

    After I had my A7ii for a little over a year, it just wouldnt switch off. I sent it into Sony and they had to replace the motherboard due to 'corrosion'. As pbizzarro says, I am pretty sure the problem is the very humid air and the condensation that accumulates moving from an air conditioned environment to the outside.

    After the A7ii incident I bought a dry box to store my equipment - which includes the A7ii and an A7rii. (I am really hoping that I dont have a similar problem especially with the A7rii.) I am pretty nervous about it though. If I look at the screws on the bottom of the A7rii or the screws under the rubber EVF guard on the A7rii, they do show signs of corroding. I am just hoping the same isnt going on within the inside of the camera.
     
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  9. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    484
    Nov 21, 2014
    I highly doubt 'his particular story' has been around for 2 years. The photo clearly shows an A7rii which was released on August 6th last year. So the underlying camera is less than a year old. 'The story' of 'moisture corrosion' and 'that the A7 cameras are 'definitely not' weather sealed', has been around for at least two years.
     
  10. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    Other than a few trips through hot, steamy places (with my gear in ziplock bags when exiting air conditioned spaces), I'm ignorant about the long term consequences of that on electronics. Do things like cell phones and laptops suffer similar damage? That could get expensive. :frown:
     
  11. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    484
    Nov 21, 2014
    Condensation occurs when warm humid air comes into contact with a cold body. It is particularly evident at dawn shootings after staying in the aircon. Most people are probably familiar with their lens misting up... In Thailand even if you you wipe the mist, it will mist up again and you sometimes have to wait for 15 minutes.

    Theoretically a ziplock bag prevents this because it prevents the 'humid' air coming in contact with the camera. You would generally expect the insides of a camera to have 'equivalent' ziplock sealing. I have never had a problem with a mobile phone even going back 15 years when they were not as well sealed. Nor with any other camera. Laptops too although you don't really use them outside at dawn in the same sort of way....


    Sent from my iPad using TalkEmount mobile app
     
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  12. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
    Cell phones are usually close to the body in a pocket, so it's warmed to body temperature.
     
  13. pbizarro

    pbizarro TalkEmount Veteran

    349
    Nov 24, 2014
    Portugal
    When I lived in Muscat, Oman, a few years back, I always had to plan ahead when I intended to go out shooting. Meaning I would leave the camera and lens outside on the balcony, wrapped in a thick cotton towel for a few hours, just so the kit would acclimatize to the outside temperature and humidity. Especially in the more humid months of the year.

    When moving between large differences in temperature and/or humidity, it is better to protect the camera inside a some sort of container (even inside camera bag), so that it acclimatizes slowly to avoid condensation.

    I have heard many times that photogs working in humid countries store their gear in dry cabinets.
     
  14. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    484
    Nov 21, 2014
    I can certainly understand this. About 3 years back I bought a Canon FD 50 1.2 lens second hand. After about a year (mostly sitting in storage) the lens had internal mold. I just sold it.

    There is a little more to my story. The cost of the replacement of the motherboard for my A7ii was quoted at US$900. This was waived by Sony due to the fact that we have some relationship (very loose just a case of mutually meeting up to try out and see new equipment). Also remember that there products are manufactured here so it is there best interests to have them tested here.

    The problem (or underlying problem) is that I dont find users of equipment from other brands running into the same problem that I have had here. I suspect that the fact they repaired it for free might be an indication that it isnt even common for Sony users. And also remember I am only a single data point amongst thousands.

    Still... at the point that Sony starts insisting that if you want to use an A7rii in Thailand that I have to make sure that I wrap it in dry towels or place it in ziplock bags before use, it will be the time that I decide to move to another brand.
     
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  15. riskinstrument

    riskinstrument TalkEmount Regular

    145
    Nov 20, 2014
    Dallas, Texas.
    No way anything electronic would work with that much corrosion.
    Can't detect any sign of conformal coating on the uncorroded parts. May be there but can't see it.
    Boards are coated to prevent corrosion.
    There would have had to be prolonged exposure to a lot of moisture for that to happen.
     
  16. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    i think that's a misinterpretation of what was said.

    the word "his" indicates that it's the link to the tobinators story that was being referenced, which was from 2014, while the first post in this thread was in reference to what a woman with an a7rii said... so the claim that 'his particular story' has been around for 2 years was correct, because he didn't call it 'her particular story'.
     
  17. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    fresh water corrosion doesn't happen overnight, if there was corrosion on the connectors to the shutter button board it's because the camera was abused months before you finally killed it in a rainstorm.

    the fact that you admit to repeatedly flooding your olympus cameras in rainstorms says it all...

    you should never let a drop of rain touch any camera equipment, period, because camera companies do not warranty damage that's caused by flooding.

    olympus is very clear about that: "Important: In some circumstances if we begin repair and see signs of damage previously undetected from the outside such as corrosion from water or loosened boards from impact, we will notify you the warranty is voided.
    http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/repair_pdfs/warranty_info.pdf

    that was never the case with the camera pics in the first post of this thread, because moisture generated by condensation would be all over the entire inside of the camera, not in the clearly defined path of damage seen in those pics.

    the air conditioning/dew point thing could be an intensification factor, but not with the short time frame of the a7rii, it was first released barely a year ago... see the corrosion time frame comment below.

    in your a7rii case, moisture from condensation would have been evident all over the outside of the camera when it went from cold air conditioning to hot outside air, similar to what happens with a cold can of beer on a hot summer day... you never mentioned seeing any moisture on the outside or the inside of the camera; there would have also been moisture on the inside of the rear element of the lens, for example.

    check the pics in these links for more info on what humidity damage on circuit boards looks like, it's generally minor: http://orbit.dtu.dk/files/100370544/Corrosion_in_electronics.pdf

    also this link: "...Many of the systems were located near the ocean. The chlorides may have been the result of ocean spray making its way into the computer environment, or may be from human sources, such as perspiration, spittle, fingerprints, etc. The source could have been the manufacturing environment or the installation engineers.

    Both of these elements are commonly found in corrosion products on PWBs. But the failures they produce generally take much longer than two years, and the damage is not likely to include burning of the PCB. These corrosives were aided by an additional factor to induce the damage so quickly." What caused the corrosion: The Answer
     
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  18. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
    The camera body lived by the marina in Mallorca for 6 months.
    I also looked at the pattern of salt leeching to particular parts. And noted no signs of corrosion or water ingress elsewhere. Thus this camera didn't get subjected to salt water, but condensation as the owner claimed. It appears to be entering from the gaps where the ribbon cables route to the EVF and the flip screen at the bottom.

    Dan, your reply seems very polarized that there can be no such form of damage of this nature, period. And that no camera company is in any way liable for warranty service. If any company markets their product to be operable in a 'moist' environment and the product fails, there is going to be issue. Thus consumer safety and protection laws for product liability spring forth.
    Camera companies market their wares as weather sealed, weather resistant, moisture resistant, water resistant, etc. Sony has also.

    Do you work in industrial design and product manufacture? If so, are your statements based on studies on product detect findings? I'm curious.
    Because from my experience with PCBs coated and uncoated, and various metal alloys subjected to year-round exposure to salt air environments, have me conclude that the salt electrolysis attaches to specific compounds and elements.
    Resulting in odd patterns of corrosive attack.
    Plus, in a corrosive environment, improperly protected products corrode in days, not years.

    In the case of the photos I linked, I conclude opposite of your statements....large ingress of liquid would result in staining throughout the interior. Surface tension would retain liquid in more areas. This pattern makes me suspect it is vapor/gaseous. Salt has deposited onto only parts it has an ionic attraction.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  19. unlo

    unlo Sony ******

    Jan 19, 2014
    Ohio
    Matt
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  20. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    if condensation only happens on the outside of a camera, how did the camera lens in this photo get moisture from condensation on the inside of a lens element?

    cameralenscondensation.
    "I have a L prime that have went through some temperature difference from -14 C
    to 30 C degree ...
    And if I look under the sun, it looks like the condensation is not running away
    even back to room temperature at 14 C ..."
    Condensation on internal glass element, what is next ?: Canon SLR Lens Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review