Leica SL - initial impressions....

[pbizarro]

i think the confusion is rather both in mistaking 'large and heavy' for 'pro' (leica built its reputation refuting this fallacy); and in rewriting the history of marketing for 'mirrorless', which burst on the scene and has continued to develop as the 'compact pro' alternative. the SL is the photography equivalent of the ferrari minivan. doesnt make alot of sense to buy a ferrari to take the kids grocery shopping. doing so scarifices the ferrari advantage of performance engine building. similarly, you sacrifice the sole advantage of mirrorless when the rig is larger and more unweildy than mirrored.

it seems to me if one is confident in what one wants, its easier to simply admit the obvious and say it doesnt matter rather than insisting that what people see and feel is untrue. ive had a fuji x100 since the beginning. the 'slow' af caused many to abandon it. it doesnt bother me. i dont waste time trying to convince those who think its too slow that its not. fine, its slow, it doesnt bother me nor does it effect my ability to get the results i want. easy peasy. ):

similarly for the SL: yes its big, yes its heavy, and thus sacrifices the mirrorless advantage. that doesnt bother you guys. great, enjoy! just dont force others to not to see what they see. easy peasy. and btw, size and weight are measurable, and thus they are the quintessence of 'objective'.

1. Mistake big and heavy for pro: well, there are exceptions, but I would say that most of us associate professional photogs with big cameras? Sports, animal life, photojournalists, most require robust tools, dual processors, incorporated battery grips, etc. The large lenses used by them balance better on larger cameras. The pros using the small Leica film RF were not shooting those types of photos. When Leica tried to introduce a competitive system in that arena, it was also a big one (Leica R).

2. Not sure what the Fuji has to do with this discussion. Any more or less experienced photographer can take nice pics with mostly any camera. Slow AF? It can work, but not in all situations.

3. Yes, people generally have perceived the advantage of mirrorless systems with the capability of using smaller cameras. I did that, moved from Canon 6D to Alpha 7, my back thanks me. But I am not a pro, nor I shoot sports or action, or big lenses. As you talk about objectivity of size and weight, the Leica SL is actually smaller than a 1DX or D5, just by dropping the OVF. I see the SL as the "new Leica R" system, it makes perfect sense as part of the new Leica ecosystem: a platform to shoot M, R, S, and SL glass. There are advantages to mirrorless besides smaller cameras; after all, there are many small DSLRs too; the EVF allows one to actually see in the dark, plus all the advantages for video, and so on.

 

[Amin]

btw, size and weight are measurable, and thus they are the quintessence of 'objective'.

If you look at a runway model posing in swimwear, their size and weight are measurable, but whether they are too thin, too big, or just right is very much subjective. The same is true with cameras.

 

[WoodWorks]

I don't know, Amin. I have yet to see a runway model posing in swimwear who wasn't "just right."

 

[chalkdust]

I see the SL as the "new Leica R" system, it makes perfect sense as part of the new Leica ecosystem: a platform to shoot M, R, S, and SL glass.

I think this is exactly correct.

 

[rbelyell]

ok guys you are all right, by the hand of god! the SL is not huge compared to any other mirrorless camera. the rig of SL and kit zoom is actually smaller than every other comparable non mirrorless rig and compares favorably in size and weight to all mirrorless competitors, of which there are none due to the SLs utter unique-ness. you are also more than correct that no professionals use compact mirrorless systems, except in the narrow parameters you have allowed. the SL is truly the most amazing breakthrough ive seen in my lifetime. it was only jealousy that motivated me and the countless others who are too blind to understand the truth of this product. please forgive my foolishness for incorrectly comparing this mirrorless camera and kit zoom to other mirrorless products when clearly it should not be so compared, and even if it is incorrectly so compared it does compare so very favorably. clearly yahway has sent his truth, that this SL shall create a new photographic classification, not the one into which the obtuse non believer would naturally categorize it. please accept my apologies, you will hear no more from the likes of me. i am just grateful i was not smoted by the powerful and omnipotent.

 

[quezra]

Jeez luise you don't have to swing from one extreme to the other.

All Amin was saying is that while the physical dimensions are objective, the description of whether those objective dimensions are too big or too small for my/your/our handling is subjective. If all humans were 6'6" we'd probably find the A7 series too tiny. On the other hand, if we were all 4'6" they'd probably be too big. Or another way of putting it, is if all cameras were the size of the Nikon D5, we'd probably find the Leica SL nice and small. If all cameras were the size of a smartphone, we'd probably find the SL really huge - without having to change its physical dimensions to reach that conclusion.

You can say the same about price. If everyone earned $1m a year, the price of the Leica would hardly bat an eyelid. If everyone earned $10k a year, it would be outrageously expensive. Again you don't need to change the physical price to see that "too expensive" is a subjective rather than objective judgement.

 

[Amin]

Maybe we can compromise and say that the camera is subjectively large but that zoom lens is objectively large .

 

[tomO2013]

Guys please - I started this thread to share an opinion. One man with one vote. The goal is to share some objective/practical pros' and cons' and have reasonable debate backed up with objective chat.
I had hoped to share my experience with the community in positive way and provide a unique take on some of the practical concerns that I have which I have not heard many others mention .... ergonomics of the grip, lack of PDAF for third party adapted lenses, haptic feedback, button control and lack of labels for use in colder climates.

Please can we avoid taking the tone of the conversation down as I'd hate to see the thread killed. It may genuinely be useful for somebody who is considering an A7rii or SL and trying to weigh up the best solution for him/her to see the list of positives and negatives and how the SL compares with the A7 range.

For what it's worth - some food for thought.....

The NX1 was released last year.
- Dynamic range similar to the SL
- Latest BSI APS-C sensor on a cutting edge manufacturing process
- Internal H.265 4k recording without pixel binning.
- 28 mp resolution (vs 24mp in A7ii or SL)
- Large high resolution and high refresh rate EVF
- touch screen control
- Larger body for those who would like a larger body similar to the SL
- Top plate LCD
- Regular firmware update - some of which have been particularly innovative. E.g DIS update for video in firmware 1.3/1.4 (cant remember which).
- 15fps continuous with auto exposure adjustment and continuous tracking (vs 5-7 for SL)
- 2 professional grade zooms available (16-50 F2-2.8 equivalent and 50-150 F2.8)
- A range of high quality glass available.
- Ability to adapt third party glass (not as flexible as Sony A7 system in terms of adapter support for flange back distance to sensor).
- Rugged weather sealed body -albeit not as nice in fit and finish as an SL.

I'm not saying that the person who will buy the SL will necessarily consider the NX1, but what I am saying is that in many ways samsung were way way ahead of the game last year and that the NX1 can stand shoulder to shoulder with the SL and even beat it hands down in terms of overall functionality. E.g hybrid video work. By the metrics that we have discussed the SL, the NX1 is very much a 'pro' level camera.

 

[Mus Aziz]

objectively large

Pun intended? Lol...

 

[pbizarro]

Guys please - I started this thread to share an opinion. One man with one vote. The goal is to share some objective/practical pros' and cons' and have reasonable debate backed up with objective chat.
I had hoped to share my experience with the community in positive way and provide a unique take on some of the practical concerns that I have which I have not heard many others mention .... ergonomics of the grip, lack of PDAF for third party adapted lenses, haptic feedback, button control and lack of labels for use in colder climates.

Please can we avoid taking the tone of the conversation down as I'd hate to see the thread killed. It may genuinely be useful for somebody who is considering an A7rii or SL and trying to weigh up the best solution for him/her to see the list of positives and negatives and how the SL compares with the A7 range.

For what it's worth - some food for thought.....

The NX1 was released last year.
- Dynamic range similar to the SL
- Latest BSI APS-C sensor on a cutting edge manufacturing process
- Internal H.265 4k recording without pixel binning.
- 28 mp resolution (vs 24mp in A7ii or SL)
- Large high resolution and high refresh rate EVF
- touch screen control
- Larger body for those who would like a larger body similar to the SL
- Top plate LCD
- Regular firmware update - some of which have been particularly innovative. E.g DIS update for video in firmware 1.3/1.4 (cant remember which).
- 15fps continuous with auto exposure adjustment and continuous tracking (vs 5-7 for SL)
- 2 professional grade zooms available (16-50 F2-2.8 equivalent and 50-150 F2.8)
- A range of high quality glass available.
- Ability to adapt third party glass (not as flexible as Sony A7 system in terms of adapter support for flange back distance to sensor).
- Rugged weather sealed body -albeit not as nice in fit and finish as an SL.

I'm not saying that the person who will buy the SL will necessarily consider the NX1, but what I am saying is that in many ways samsung were way way ahead of the game last year and that the NX1 can stand shoulder to shoulder with the SL and even beat it hands down in terms of overall functionality. E.g hybrid video work. By the metrics that we have discussed the SL, the NX1 is very much a 'pro' level camera.

The problem with the NX1 is that hardly any one bought it? And that Samsung are retiring from some important European markets? A system that targets pros needs to be able to offer support "on the spot"; if I am a pro and my camera breaks, I need good support service.

As for experience with the SL, in my first reply to this post, I suggested the opinions of Sean Reid and Michael Reichmann, who are experienced photographers. The latter actually used the camera in his latest travel to Yemen. I have handled the camera in a shop in Lisbon, it is built like a tank, feels like a tank, and yes, the 24-90 lens is huge, not quite clear why.

 

[tomO2013]

That's very true about the NX1, but I would hazard a guess that a similarly small number of people will buy the SL. Nevermind the Leica T that was released about a year or two back - I hard similar euphemisms from respected photographers as they lost objectivity at the sight of the beautiful red dot. There has been a history of good products that never got much traction due to one major issue or another.

In the case of the NX1 I think it is also a great example of how a badge can both hamper or damage your chances for success. Samsung did a LOT of things right with the NX1 and it was still a sales failure.
Gear of the Year Part 4: Dale's pick - Samsung NX1
And the winners are: DPReview Awards 2015

Having said that and to your point about the need for pro level aftermarket support - Leica still do not offer anything like Canon's or Nikons Pro support. Sony at least are attempting to implement pro level support in North America and I believe they are working on Europe too. Olympus and Fuji I have heard nothing.

Ever sent your Leica rangefinder in for a re-adjustment? It goes back to Leica direct. They do a very good job with the repair but it takes a few weeks for them to get your camera back to you. In the mean time it is up to your local dealer to have a backup for you if they even carry backups.
I asked my local dealer that exact same question on the Leica SL. What happens if something goes wrong with it? Answer, you ship it back to Leica for repair. Do they have a backup? No and nor will they carry backups unless the camera sells in mass as very few people will buy an SL over the other cameras in stock. That could change if Leica SL's fly off the shelves, but at 10k plus for a camera + lens? I would seriously doubt the chicken would come before the egg here.

IMHO part of the problem with respect to pro level service and support for the SL is that for it to have great pro level support the camera needs to gain some level of sales and dealer support in an already niche category of camera. For that to happen, the SL itself needs to be financially accessible and offer something unique for the majority of working photographers who don't tend to make a lot of money on photography these days.

If a camera dealer sells 1 Leica SL for every 50 1dx, which camera do you think he will stock rental backups for? My local camera dealer stocks Canon, Nikon and Sony backups. Sells Leicas but does not stock backups.

Irrespective of Sean or Michael whose reviews I enjoy, I don't always agree with the herd and having first hand tried the SL I found the ergonomics unpleasant, which for me is personal/subjective make it or break it deal with any camera system.
The only photographer whose opinion I care about most is my own as I have to pay for the damn thing and live with it. I'm simply not prepared to pay 12k for a depreciating asset that offers no tangible different shooting experience over any competing system apart from bad finger cramp as a result of an uncomfortable grip.

Finally to reiterate again, I do NOT think the SL is a crap camera. It's a very good camera, I just do not like it and prefer the A7ii, A7rii, EM1, NX1 over it if I was to do paid work with it. That does not mean that I am right, just that I am being honest with my opinion

Also I'm not a pro which you can probably tell by the gaping holes in my work! Just a passionate amateur. Somebody doing this for their bread and butter may correct many of my assumptions/opinions

 

[Nexnut]

Sony at least are attempting to implement pro level support in North America and I believe they are working on Europe too. Olympus and Fuji I have heard nothing.

The last time I had my X-Pro1 serviced Fuji sent me a backup via UPS. Got no reasons to complain.

 

[chalkdust]

The Leica SL, however good it is, is simply priced far beyond my budget. I suspect that if I were given one for a period of time, I would enjoy using it. I think I have the skills to obtain a good images from it. When I ask myself if I would get one if I had the money, I notice a strange reaction in me. I find that I am loath to give up my 55mm f/1.8 Sonnar lens.