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Does it make sense to get an A7R now?

Discussion in 'Sony Alpha E-Mount Cameras' started by WestOkid, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    I need some advice. I am starting to get annoyed with the sensor reflection thing on my A7. So much so that I am considering selling my A7 and picking up a used a7r for about $1000. My understanding is that the sensor on the A7r isn't as susceptible to this sensor flare. I would go for the A7II, but I don't have the funds for that right now. Plus I prefer the small form factor of the original a7. Oh and 36mp and IQ bump can't hurt. :)

    The question I ask is, does this make sense? My fears are that many say the a7r is half baked. What does that mean? I shoot primarily landscape and much of the time on tripod with UWA to normal lenses. I don't really care about AF speed because I use my a6000 when I'm in that situation. What I worry about are issues like:
    • Sensor reflections - Is this in the a7r too?
    • Shutter shock - I hear this is real and I hear it is overblown gibberish. Which is it?
    • Camera functions slowing down unexpectedly. Is this true?
    • anything else that is a result of a rushed to market camera
    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
     
  2. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    196
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    • Sensor reflections - Is this in the a7r too?

    Are you using non AF adapted lenses ?
    There can be 2 types of problems: loose lens mount causing internal bleed usually at higher ISO (this can also happen on A7r, A7s) or internal reflections caused by a combination of antique lenses with a lot of potential back reflections towards sensor and/or inappropriate adapters

    • Shutter shock - I hear this is real and I hear it is overblown gibberish. Which is it?

    The shutter is indeed kind of rough if i may use the expression and it makes a noise similar to a SLR that has a mirror slapping up and down. It could cause vibrations on a flimsy tripod with longer lenses at certain shutter speeds. Can't say which speed since it will depend on total weight, the way is is on or off balance on tripod mount etc

    • Camera functions slowing down unexpectedly. Is this true?

    Never experienced that but then my WI-Fi is OFF

    • anything else that is a result of a rushed to market camera

    No camera will ever be complete. At the pace technology is developing new stuff, any body will look outdated within 3 months to the unknowledgeable techno geek that is convinced he absolutely requires the latest model to take good pictures

    When i start feeling that way, this is what i bring out for a little return to modesty
    8712858350_3948a157f5_b.
    And some results:
    8795764436_0d3eb3ed62_b.
    10829127643_2958341eb5_b.

    Do i need a better camera ?

    May be i should sell the A7r after all
     
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  3. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Thanks for responding Michel.

    95% of the time I use native glass, this is not an adapter issue. I actually had that issue with my Fotodiox EF smart adapter and put flocking paper in the adapter to fix it. The sensor reflections on a7 are well documented. Just google it and you will find a million examples (Reflections). It basically creates blue green orbs and stuff in your pictures that have strong light sources against dark backgrounds. I spend a lot of time cleaning it up in post or tossing the shot. It's just frustrating since I find myself taking more night shots in the city. Other than that I am happy with my a7.
     
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  4. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Sensor reflection on the A7 is a real bummer indeed :(
    On the other hand, I've never read for this being an issue with the A7R but shutter shock is...
    How much more expensive is the A7II from the $1000 A7R now? I'm guessing you are buying new? Not grey market, open box etc?
    For me, A7II is an overall more refined camera but if you've deciced the cons of the A7R (slow, shutter, menu, wide angle lenses issue etc) are not major drawbacks for you, and since you actually prefer the original A7 smaller body design, then go for it :)
     
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  5. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
    That's a superb film shot of the church in Old Montreal, Michel!

    My thoughts....if the resale of the A7 brings you to within a couple hundred dollars of the A7R, then it's worth the upgrade to relieve yourself of the reflection issue. I can see how that can become maddening.
    I would see if any of your camera buddies have an A7R and see if you can shoot a few exposures with your lenses on it to test the shutter shock issue.
     
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  6. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Thanks @NickCyprus@NickCyprus - I am looking at a used A7r. A new one still retails for more than a7II so that isn't in play.

    You mention a7r having issue with wide angle lenses. I have never heard this. Only heard some stuff about rangefinder lenses, but I only shoot native. Does the a7r have a issue with say the 1635z? If so then it's a deal breaker.
     
  7. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Ye
    Yes I meant rangefinder lenses :)

    I still think the A7II is a wiser option, especially if you don't need the extra resolution and the price difference is not too much
     
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  8. hodad66

    hodad66 Sony Guru

    582
    Feb 8, 2012
    Indialantic, Fl
    John
    I just sold my A7R to upgrade to the A7RII but it was always my
    favorite. Even after getting the A7II I would mostly use the A7R.
    The reason for me was the dynamic range. Being able to bring
    out the shadows or save the washed out areas was magic to me.
    Even the A7RII doesn't match this capability.
     
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  9. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Thanks. This is positive.
    Did you experience the shutter shock?
     
  10. michelb

    michelb TalkEmount Regular

    196
    Oct 27, 2013
    Greater Montreal area in Quebec, Canada
    Michel Brien
    @ WNG: The church is in Quebec city (lower part of the old town) and is the oldest stone church in North America north of Mexico.

    @WestOkid@WestOkid:

    I was re-thinking about your issue and since i was not aware of this since i have A7r and A7II and did sometimes experience some of the reflections o think you are mentioning but mostly in very isolated situations. One instance i remember while using Sony FE 28 F2 with the 21mm converter on A7r with the sun in my face. See here examples at ISO 200.
    26345912145_13f59719c8_b.
    Detail of roof but there are also a few others like this on the guard rail and at the bottom of the door of the shed
    26073033320_ffd000eae8_o.

    Here flare and globs all over the place:
    26073034240_13a47074b8_b.
    Detail of door
    25741044414_63e0a4c971_b.

    In fact i was testing without a tripod at most apertures and these globs of light or reflections are actually all in the same frame position even though the camera did move slightly between each shot. They appear on all the pictures from F2.8 to F22 but with some change of size or dispersion as the aperture changes.
    The miracles of highly reflective digital sensors combined with a lot of glass can not do miracles. This is definitely going to happen at random depending on the lens in use, proper use of lens shades, presence of protective filters, angle to some bright light source, etc

    I don't think A7r will give you the kind of improvement your are after
     
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  11. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    did whoever said that actually substantiate any concerns?
    • Sensor reflections - Is this in the a7r too?
    i've only seen it once, under some of the worst conditions you can shoot in, see below, but then i try to avoid shooting with a light source in the frame, regardless of which camera is used.
    • Shutter shock - I hear this is real and I hear it is overblown gibberish. Which is it?
    it's both, but even in the worst-case scenario, it may not ever lower the a7r resolution below the 24mp level of the a7: Sony a7 EFCS: how much difference does it make? | The Last Word
    i can only think of two advantages to a7; pdaf(but not with 3rd-party adapters) and efcs(a significant advantage, imho).
    • Camera functions slowing down unexpectedly. Is this true?
    i've never seen that, and i've had this camera for over two years, using it in some horrible dusty/sandy/wet conditions.
    • anything else that is a result of a rushed to market camera
    i've seen no evidence that the a7r was "rushed to market", it's basically the same camera as the a7, with a different sensor.

    here is my lone example of sensor reflection, it's largely cropped out at the bottom, but you can see the top edge of it... iso10000, light sources directly in the frame, from both above and below(light bouncing off of white flat k-wall surface), using a legacy 28/2 vivitar lens... i'd like to believe that newer lenses are coated and designed with sensor reflections in mind.
    15040431399_5b96c10d24_h.
     
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  12. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Thanks Dan. This is really useful information. Especially the Jim Kasson link. Seems like when/if shutter shock occurs it doesn't actually ruin the image. It just lowers the resolution if I read Jim's findings correctly. Is this consistent with your real-world experience?
     
  13. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    How much I understand you Gary. I am also in a situation where I feel I need to switch to another body essentially because of this sensor reflection.
    Yesterday I almost bought the A7ii (since my A7 is down and gone for repair for at least 3/4 weeks) and now you make me doubt. A7R, why not ?
    36 Mpx sounds good indeed, keeping the original A7 size too, and I don't really want to spend 2800 euros for the A7Rii. But I think I will stick to the A7ii, essentially because I leave tomorrow and getting a A7ii is easier for me given the limited time I have before flying. I can't even think visiting 3 countries without a camera. I will at least test it for 3 weeks and once I get my A7 back I will make a decision. Keep it and sell the A7 or sell it and keep the A7. In the worst case I will maybe lose 100 Euros selling it a bit cheaper but at least I won't miss any photo. I will give you my impressions ASAP (if I actually find time to go and get it tomorrow)
     
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  14. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    i've sort of tried to duplicate rez loss due to ss, but i've never seen it, probably due to either shooting really long or wide most of the time, at faster shutter speeds... it definitely exists, i think.

    all the talk of it tho, forced me to usually shoot at shutter speeds just above the problematic range, 1/320th minimum for example... there is wiggle room for an a7r faster shutter with higher iso over what you'd use for the a7, just in the dr performance alone, but also in part because you can interpolate more mp to improve pq: Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

    you can see the a7r shutter really whack the level indicator, the tighter you hold it the less whacking there is :) it's disconcerting.

    one thing you gain with the a7r is higher magnification levels in the evf, which is better for mf lenses.
     
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  15. hodad66

    hodad66 Sony Guru

    582
    Feb 8, 2012
    Indialantic, Fl
    John
    I never really noticed it..... shutter loud yes..... shock.. no.
     
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  16. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Thanks Dan, John. That's what I needed to hear. I think I am going to search for some A7R deals.

    Yannis -If nothing comes up, I'll see what you say about the A7II, though it really is out of the budget right now unless I find a real bargain on a used one.

    BTW Dan - No offense intended on the other thread. I really think we misunderstood each other. :flowers_2:
     
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  17. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    I'm afraid I can only be of little help here, Gary. I've never used an A7R, and I only shot one frame with my old A7 that had some obvious sensor flare. I guess I don't shoot at night very often. But I have shot with an A7II for about three months now. And I am surprised at how much I prefer shooting with this A7II over my old A7. I prefer the longer grip, and the position of the shutter button. And I love the second custom button near the shutter. For me it just is easier to use, and the size difference is completely inconsequential. Plus: IBIS. If you ever shoot with longer legacy lenses, it's like cheating. :laugh:

    So here, free advice, and worth every penny: Hold out for a deal on an A7II.

    :daz:
     
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  18. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB TalkEmount Regular

    145
    Feb 9, 2016
    Cincinnati, OH
    Bob
    This is a question I've been meaning to ask (may be a dumb one..). With the "R" series cameras having more pixels on the same size sensor they must be smaller. This would mean their high iso performance is diminished (compared to A7), correct? What about dynamic range?

    Wasn't one of the differences between the A7/A7R the removal of the low pass filter on the "R" sensor? Wouldn't that mean less sensor reflection issues?

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  19. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Both the R series have better high ISO performance than the regular 7. The sensors may be the same size but it's different sensor technology. Even if the high ISO performance were the same, you have more pixels to work with so you could downsize the R series image to 24mp and get better noise performance. The R has better dynamic range too. Basically the IQ is better on the R.
     
  20. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    used a7r for ~$1k is tremendous roi, but there is no pdaf, sync speed for flash is lower(?), and you'll want to test the ss situation for yourself... i'd google a7r sensor reflection as well, but i don't recall seeing anything as frequent as the a7r posts... i finally caved in and ended up getting the laea4, for the tamron 150-600.

    here is dr vs. iso for the four sony cameras: Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting
    look at the a6300, just as good as the a7/a7rii for most of the upper range, but ff will still have cleaner iso noise, you can probably see that in the dpr studio test scene.
    both the a7rii and a6300 have radical jogs in the graph, due to aptina dual-stage gain technology on the sensor... the dxo graphs won't look like this.
    anything below iso100 is probably fake iso, at least it definitely is with the a7rii.