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Canon 5d mk4

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by unlo, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. unlo

    unlo Sony ******

    Jan 19, 2014
    Ohio
    Matt
    Gotta say there are some pretty Slick new features that i'd be IN LOVE with were they available on a NEW sony camera!

    SONY PLZ PAY ATTENTION!

    dpr

    TrustedReviews

    SLRlounge

    to name a few... there are plenty

    Just my short list of things i WISH we had.

    - TouchScreen TouchScreen TouchScreen TouchScreen TouchScreen TouchScreen
    - those tasty interval timers (NO APP NEEDED!)
    - DUAL CARD SLOTS?!!
     
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  2. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Funny thing is that while I agree with you about the features like the touch screen and built in timelapse, those features have been built into other systems like m4/3 for years. Even my NEX 5t had a touch screen.
    They are not built into Sony alpha for technical reasons, they are purposely excluded for cost savings.
     
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  3. unlo

    unlo Sony ******

    Jan 19, 2014
    Ohio
    Matt
    My 5r also has touch screen. And software things like intervelometer, are software. And easy to provide they just want to gouge with apps. IMHO. And just for arguments sake. No one who bought a7rii felt those cost savings. Again just my opinion..

    Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  4. tomO2013

    tomO2013 TalkEmount Veteran

    375
    Dec 11, 2014
    The specific implementation is fantastic - that new dual pixel stuff is witch craft if you have had an opportunity to use and the AF system is the fastest I've ever tried.

    It provides the best live view tracking performance I've ever seen and is super fast, even in low light.
     
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  5. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    There's only one thing wrong with the 5D Mark IV – it's a DSLR. I'm still hoping that Canon and Nikon make serious cases in mirrorless so that we get other FF options than Sony.
     
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  6. Kiwi Paul

    Kiwi Paul TalkEmount Veteran

    334
    Feb 14, 2016
    Aberdeen, Scotland
    Paul
    Yeah but even if Canon and Nikon do make mirrorless DSLR's I'm not about to sell up everything and start over again.
     
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  7. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    488
    Nov 21, 2014
    Tony Northrup put out a video testing the 'dual pixel raw' on the Canon 5D MK14 and concluded it was worse than useless and that he would be switching off the capability for good.

     
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  8. unlo

    unlo Sony ******

    Jan 19, 2014
    Ohio
    Matt
    lol sometimes i think he says things just to hear himself say them b/c he knows they'll get reactions. regardless good or bad. just reactions. my .02
     
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  9. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    I guess @NickCyprus@NickCyprus and I are the only people that don't mind Tony. I think he does a decent job and is fair. Sometimes he goes over the top on his points, but that's business. You need personality or else no one pays attention. And when all else fails, he turns to Chelsea and she is must see TV. ;)
     
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  10. robbie36

    robbie36 TalkEmount Veteran

    488
    Nov 21, 2014
    Doesnt look that likely, though, does it? A year ago there were a lot of rumors about Nikon and Canon announcing serious mirrorless cameras at this Photokina. Since then, Nikon have shelved their Nikon 1 (replaced by DL fixed lens) and Canon are likely to launch an updated Canon M (yawn.) Funnily enough, it appears that Sony might well be bringing out a mirrorless built like a DSLR (A9). Quite a turn around.

    I suspect Canon and Nikon have shelved plans to get serious about mirrorless for a couple of reasons.

    (1) First of all mirrorless simply hasnt taken off nearly as much as many people originally envisioned. Mirrorless only accounts for 25% of the total ILC market in 2016 YTD compared to 20% as far back as 2012. Yes that's an improvement but its hardly stellar especially considering there are 7 competitors in mirrorless and pretty much 2 in DSLRs. You would think the A7 series is doing well but I suspect most buyers simply switched from another mirrorless than a DSLR. And the A7 series doesnt seem to have transformed Sony's ILC business - I read that Sony's market share of total ILCs has risen from around 11% to 13% in the last couple of years. My guess is the system (particularly the lenses) is simply too expensive to make a major dent in Canon and Nikon's market share.

    (2) And against this Nikon and Canon (Canon, in particular) is apparently doing well at the moment in the face of a declining market... this from the first half results....

    'Within the Imaging System Business Unit, unit sales of ILCs remained at the same level as the previous year owing to healthy for the professional EOS 1Dmk2, and 80D...'

    ...and this is before the launch of the 5D Mk4.

    I am not really convinced it makes much sense for Nikon and Canon to 'seriously' enter the mirrorless space at the moment as they seem better off out of it. Mind you I dont think it makes much sense for Sony to turn their mirrorless into a DSLR either....
     
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  11. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    That makes at least 3 of us, I actually watch his videos regularly. Apparently he's not lost for words or other interesting content because I don't see Chelsea around that much lately :(.
     
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  12. Kiwi Paul

    Kiwi Paul TalkEmount Veteran

    334
    Feb 14, 2016
    Aberdeen, Scotland
    Paul
    I think one of the reasons CANIKON are reluctant to enter the mirrorless FF market is the logistics.
    They would need a full frame mirrorless body and then build a whole new lens range to work with it. They could build an adapter making the existing lenses compatible but they would need a range of dedicated lenses too.
    Assuming they did go that route, who would buy it? The existing CANIKON users already have a collection of legacy lenses and would not have any real reason to buy the mirrorless body. Any new sales of the mirrorless system would impact on the DSLR systems.
    Sony were able to produce the mirrorless body and lenses as they didn't have a huge DSLR market and decided they would do better promoting the mirrorless system rather than competing directly with CANIKON with DSLR's
     
  13. tomO2013

    tomO2013 TalkEmount Veteran

    375
    Dec 11, 2014
    Dual pixel af is different from Dual pixel raw, although dual pixel technology powers both.

    Dual pixel AF is what allows racking focus in a professional video camera cine lineup. It's revolutionary in my opinion, and the underlying technology positions Canon to offer a best of all worlds to those who want mirrorless and those who want DSLR experience. It allows fast accurate autofocus in live view including accurate video tracking performance, something many camera both mirrorless and DSLR struggle with in stills nevermind video.

    What Tony was referring/complaining about was the focus adjust with dual pixel raw. I personally feel that it has limited usage however I also feel that he misrepresented/misunderstood the potential of the technology and it's intended audience. DPHog did an interesting video talking about how the post capture focus adjust was for micro adjust - most noticeable with the 85 1.2 and longer glass when for example moving focus from eye lash to eyeball. He has also done something that Tony hasn't and provided samples that you can play with yourself. It's micro in detail for very sublte post capture focus adjustment. It's primarily useful for wide open shooting on long telephoto.
    Similar results from froknowsphoto who did a 1 hour long real world shoot with the 5div and compared results on his monitor after the fact and noted that it was subtle. The focus accuracy is supposedly so good that it is only something that is nice to have for specific portrait shoots where you want total granual control at the micro level.

    FWIW I enjoy Tony's reviews from an entertainment factor. However I feel that he fixates too much on perceived sharpness in DXO and DXO spec numbers which only give a basic insight into a cameras capabilities. Basically he plays top trumps with camera specs without practical real world usage.
    DXO's results on the non-dual pixel raw files demonstrated that the 5div is in the same ballpark as the D810 and A7rii at similar ISO's ( the D810 has a 2/3 - 1 stop advanrage at ISO50 as expected).

    Two additional benefits of dual pixel tech .... imaging resource has demonstrated that effectively the file capture contains the equivalent of a 15bit raw in terms of tonality and can yield an additional stop of dynamic range which would potentially put the 5div better than the D810 at ISO100!
    Forget subtle focus tweaks, Canon’s Dual Pixel RAW tech can give you an additional stop in the highlights!
    Another person in the dpreview forums has demonstrated that DPRaw information can be used for stereoscopic capture - in a nutshell, it's a huge technological leap and I'm sure that software support over time will improve it's usefulness.
     
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  14. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    Not sure I understand Tom. I think most of us, or at least I knew he was talking about dual pixel raw and not dual pixel AF. The reason why dual pixel AF is not being discussed is because it has been in a few cameras for years. The 70D had dual pixel AF in 2013. the other reason dual pixel isn't too relevant is because phase detect mirror less cameras already do what it does.

    People are concentrating on the dual pixel raw because it had buzz like it was a game changer. It would solve the problem of micro adjust for DSLR back and front focus issues. The other benefit that was viewed as revolutionary was allowing meaningful PP focus adjustments. Canon even uses the example of a portrait shot at shallow depth where the eyelash is in focus but the eye isn't to explain its usage. That said, I watched how while they said this was the use case, Canon chose to demonstrate the feature on an arbitrary object; not an eye. I wonder why? Since then, I have seen several videos including Tony's and DPR where they say it is borderline useless. DPR even tried the eyelash test with an 85mm and said the adjustments are so small they couldn't get the eye in focus.

    As for the ancillary benefits you mention. That's good to know, but not even canon is shopping them as great features. They are nothing that anyone would buy a camera for at this point. especially if you have to double your file size and elongate your workflow for the potential of 1 extra stop of highlights. Any other use is in the future, so at best this is a foundation builder, not a game changer.

    Look, I think the 5D IV is a great camera for a number of reasons, but at this point Dual pixel raw feature is a bust with regard to its advertised use case.
     
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  15. southy

    southy TalkEmount Veteran

    370
    Feb 5, 2014
    Australia
    Still too big!
    Still too heavy!
    Still no tilting screen!
    Still not for me!
    I'm sure they will sell by the truck load though.
     
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  16. unlo

    unlo Sony ******

    Jan 19, 2014
    Ohio
    Matt
    I agree. That's why I bought into Sony. Although any maker is a compromise over the other in one way or another. I still yearn for better and more frequent software updates. ESP for hardware not yet considered EOL by Sony.
     
  17. tomO2013

    tomO2013 TalkEmount Veteran

    375
    Dec 11, 2014
    Dual Pixel AF : In my opinion mirrorless doesn't compete with this technology currently. Certainly nothing in the Sony camp comes anywhere near the level of speed, precision and focus accuracy during tracking video, let alone stills. As a technology, this is as big a deal as the introduction of in-body image stabilization. It's a huge step forward.
    Mirrorless phase detect sensors work on the principal of losing certain photodiode points across the sensor plane in favor of phase detect points at those points. The dual pixel AF technology resides behind the photodiode itself. There is no loss of photosites (not that 399 points on a 42mp a7rii is that big of a light loss in the grand scheme of things). More importantly, effectively 80% of the 30mp sensor acts as lots and lots of phase detect points. For tracking, fine focus precision, etc...
    The dual pixel AF technology has been in the 70d, 80d and now the 1dxii and 5div. I agree with you that it is a foundation builder right now, software (and lightroom) need to catch up. However with the most recent implementations of the technology other photographic possibilities have been discovered e.g. stereoscopic capture.How to make stereoscopic images with Canon EOS 5D MArk IV's Dual Pixel RAW that people are really only starting to tap into in my opinion. Given that Canon is still the big gorilla in the room, I've no doubt that software support for dual pixel raw will indeed catch up without elongating the workflow.

    Dual pixel raw for focus adjust was lauded as a game changer - I agree. However I feel that there has been an over abundance of negativity for a new feature that has not been tested necessarily in the context that it was intended - by way of example Tony Northrups test going from ear to eye lash. The froknowsphoto sample raw files which have been made available (tonys have not) do demonstrate the subtle adjustment that you can achieve going from nose to eye lash and also eye lash to eye. Although to his point that already they are so sharp that at reasonable A2 print sizes the subtle sharpness improvement would be difficult to perceive.
    On the flip side too, ghosting reduction and bokeh shift are nice (particularly the ghosting reduction as it has the benefit of retaining contrast in an image). In the context of an a7rii shooter, a doubling of the 5div raw file size still comes in under the lossless Sony A7rii file size so if the a7rii files don't bother me, why would the canon?!

    I'm just trying to play devils advocate here - I don't think the post focus adjust is the reason to buy the camera, it's a nice feature if it works for you. I just think it has been a badly communicated feature by canon or at least certain reviewers are reviewing out of context for the purposes of generating hype and click bate.