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Are we there yet?

Discussion in 'Sony Alpha E-Mount Cameras' started by Bill, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. Bill

    Bill TalkEmount Veteran

    339
    Oct 22, 2012
    Brisbane, Australia
    Bill
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]Sony's NEX-7 has been around since 2011, so Sony watchers have been awaiting a replacement for a little while now. The latest rumours, however, seem to be suggesting there will be a NEX-6/7 replacement soon—but with few surprises. That was a bit disappointing, but it's given me a chance to think about the situation more generally.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]DXOMark, provides sensor ratings for most digital cameras. And, while not perfect, the DXO scores afford some useful comparative information about camera sensors (and their processing engines). But, in considering these "scores," it's important to remember that 2 or 3 points either way are insignificant.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]So let's have a look.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]The NEX-7 has an impressive overall DXO sensor rating of 81. And, as I've looked at the field, there seems to be a barrier at around 85. For example, no APS-C camera breaks through that barrier. And, not even the Leica full-frames get to 85: The Leica Type 240 scores an 84, the Leica 220 is at 69, and the Leica M9 comes in at 69. No tested Canon, full-frame or otherwise, scores above 82.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]Only 3 medium-format backs come in above 85. And only 12 full-frame cameras score above 85. The Sony A7 comes in only 5 points above that, at 90.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]Many people's choice for 2013 camera of the year, the impressive Olympus OMD E-M1, comes in at 73—the best score for a Micro Four Thirds camera.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]Thinking about it, I don't know what I was expecting. (Even if they could, there's no chance that Sony is going to let it's APS-C cameras encroach on their full-frames.)[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]I'm sure that Sony and the other sensor makers are working overtime to develop the next generation of sensors. But it doesn't look like that's going to happen this week.[/FONT][/FONT]
     
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  2. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    While these numbers may be important to some, I really don't care to much.

    I have found my happy spot with the NEX-6 and plan on being happy for some time to come.
     
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  3. serhan

    serhan TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 27, 2011
    NYC
    Sony is leading the sensor development, but we are using the couple years old technology right now. A7R is using 2 years old DX800E sensor. Similarly EM5 is nearly 2 years old and EM1 is using Panasonic sensor which caught up w/ Sony. All this time mirrorless is trying to catch up w/ phase detection sensors of dslrs and that even reduces some of the high iso scores eg nex 6 vs nex 5n and A7 vs RX1, etc. So I don't know how much new nex-6/7 replacement will be different then 3 years old 24MP sensor or who will release the next generation sensor cameras.

    Sony's new arena is medium format CMOS sensor:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_phase_one_iq250_cmos_fully_realized.shtml

    and today Sigma released a new type of sensor to increase their sensor's high ISO performance:
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/0...ource=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_0

    The other side of the coin is the lenses. We need high IQ lenses to use to utilize these new sensors and that is the question on Sony esp when Fuji is catching up w/ m43 as a full system.... Sony QA/QC is not the best in the industry either which is OK w/ cameras which can be replaced every couple years but the lenses stays longer and forms the system... Sony is now selling its computer division and reducing its tv business so hopefully we'll get more attention on image division. Other then Asia, the mirrorless is struggling in US and Europe, so now we have old slr shaped cameras from each manufacturer... Hopefully these new generation cameras will have more then the marketing claims of fastest af and we'll some real improvements. I don't even know how many nex cameras we have and now w/ alpha designation it is getting really confusing to differentiate them ...
     
  4. WT21

    WT21 TalkEmount Top Veteran

    610
    Aug 7, 2011
    I like my NEX6, and just sold my 6D, but those are some funny little DXO numbers. I can tell you that at any ISO, the 6D was head and shoulders better than my NEX6. I think the 6D sensor was the best sensor Canon offers (even better than their flagships, like the 5DIII). Nut I just decided I didn't want a DSLR anymore.

    The form factor of the NEX6 could fit me fine for some time. Flippy LCD, EVF, buttons. All great. My struggle is the NEX native lenses. I really just don't like many (any) of them. I have only kept the 55-210. I also have the Rokinon 8mm 2.8 native e-mount, which I don't actually need, but can't sell it, lol. So, I'm using mainly MF/legacy lenses. I've got a Zeiss MF lens on the way to try that one out. Would like to see more efforts into lenses, but I'm afraid that Sony now might be more intd in FF than APS-C, which will be out of my budget.
     
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  5. Bill

    Bill TalkEmount Veteran

    339
    Oct 22, 2012
    Brisbane, Australia
    Bill
    Lenses have a lot to do with the final look. I just bought the Sony/Zeiss 55mm FE for my NEX-7. So, they've already had their way with me.
     
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  6. Poki

    Poki TalkEmount Hall of Famer

    Aug 30, 2011
    Austria
    The importance of DxOmark ratings may be discussable, but at least it's an easy way to compare sensors. And yes, there never has been fast improvements in sensor technology, but rather slow improvements over time. I doubt there is any 'limit' at 85.

    @WT21: Are you serious? You are expecting an APS-C sized camera to outperform a ff camera that was released at roughly the same time in the ISO department? And apart from that, the NEX-6 has a full stop more dynamic range, which is much more important anyway. (http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...-6-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III___836_832_795)

    As for the DxO numbers there - the 6D has just about one stop better high-ISO performance, but exactly one stop worse dynamic range, that's why the overall score doesn't differ too much.

    Also, you want to see 'more effort put into lenses'? What's missing? We have everything now - except a fast, longer portrait prime and a long macro lens. There's a full line-up of EIGHT autofocus Zeiss lenses, full third party support from Sigma and Rokinon and of course all those good Sony lenses. Two years ago, I also said we need more lenses, but saying it today is like saying a car needs more than four wheels.
     
  7. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    I know this one :). What about a high-quality telephoto zoom lens? Or a high-quality telephoto lens at all? The 55-210mm is a mediocre lens and I say that after having tried 3 samples of which I have the least bad one now. I know a 70-200mm is in the works but I can't buy that one today and I won't buy it until it's clear that it's not a dud.
     
  8. Poki

    Poki TalkEmount Hall of Famer

    Aug 30, 2011
    Austria
    The Sony 70-200 f/4 G OSS FE will be shipped within three months. And being a well known lens design and priced at €1400 I really don't think it's gonna be a bad lens.
     
  9. Bill

    Bill TalkEmount Veteran

    339
    Oct 22, 2012
    Brisbane, Australia
    Bill
    When you get to the 70-200mm zooms for full-frame (even at f/4), the small body looses its benefit. I'm not usually a long-lens shooter, but if I felt the need I might consider the RX10 instead. Less expensive, pretty good IQ in good light, and fast across the range.
     
  10. Poki

    Poki TalkEmount Hall of Famer

    Aug 30, 2011
    Austria
    I tend to disagree. Of course I would prefer a version optimized for APS-C sensors, but a NEX-7 with this 70-200 is still much smaller and lighter than, say, a 5DIII with a Canon 70-200 f/4.

    And I mean it's not like the NEX-7 with, for example, the 24mm Sonnar is pocketable.

    The RX10 costs almost as much as this lens - and you won't have it nearly as long. I want my lenses to last a lifetime, but I probably wouldn't use a body released in 2013 in ten years from now. So throw it away buying a new RX10 or simply keeping my lens while I buy different bodies? For me, the latter is the better solution anyway. Also, the RX10 may be one stop faster across the range, but with an one inch sensor that's one stop worse than current APS-C sensors and even two-and-a-half stops worse than current ff cameras, it's not like that matters.
     
  11. dbmiller

    dbmiller TalkEmount Top Veteran

    777
    Mar 2, 2012
    New England
    Funny... My wife wants something better than a crappy Point and Shoot, and I have been considering the RX10 for her. She's shot with it, and it's okay - The power zoom is a little wonky, but other than that it's a really nice camera.

    But with the A6000 now out, and I'm not quite ready to put my foot in the door with the A7/A7R, I'm wondering if I should "upgrade" my 5N to the A6000, get the 18-105PZ and give the 5n with the 18-105 to my wife to shoot in iAuto mode.

    So for about the same price, I get a better camera to hold me over until there's an FF E-mount with IBIS. And when that does come out, my wife gets the A6000, and the 5N is either a backup if something breaks, or gets sold for whatever I can get out of it.

    I've also thought about getting the A6000 + FE24-70Z instead of the 18-105PZ, but that isn't the same price point as the RX10 :)
     
  12. Poki

    Poki TalkEmount Hall of Famer

    Aug 30, 2011
    Austria
    My previous comment was meant if you already had a NEX with shorter lenses and wanted more zoom range.

    The problems with your solution are: Your wife will get significantly less zoom range and significantly worse low light quality with the NEX / 18-105 combination as opposed to the RX10. Also, she'll have to carry a bigger camera. And as far as I've seen, the RX10 is quite a nice camera by itself. The 24-70 gives you even less zoom range. So the question then is: What's the point of your wife wanting the RX10? If she doesn't need the zoom range, than the RX100 is the best solution.
     
  13. dbmiller

    dbmiller TalkEmount Top Veteran

    777
    Mar 2, 2012
    New England
    She didn't like the RX100. In her words, the RX100 is "too small". She says doesn't feel comfortable holding it. And she likes having a viewfinder.

    As for the 18-105, I agree the zoom is less (5x+ vs 8x+), but the f/2.8 vs f/4 will be made up for by the larger sensor having less noise, so it can shoot at a higher ISO. And they will have about the same Depth of Field. Now, the RX10 may beat the 5n for now at noise levels, but when I get the FF E-mount, the A6000 has the same BIONZ-X processor, and then the A6000+SEL18105 certainly looks better than the RX10.

    And I already have the 55-210, so if a longer lens is really needed, one will be available. Most of her shots are when she's out with friends, so the 18-105 should be more than enough for her. If zoom in a single lens was really an issue, I could get the 18-200 instead.

    I had also considered the Canon G1X mark II. 5x zoom, but variable aperture (f/2->3.8?). The 1.5" sensor bigger than the RX10, but smaller than the 5n or A6000. Cheaper than the RX10, but the EVF is separate and almost makes up the difference in price.

    I wish the A7/A7R had IBIS. Then it'd be a no-brainer to just give her the 5n.

    Of course, the A6000 may come out and I find I don't like it. But I feel the A6000 to me has given me another option that I didn't have before.

    Keep the comments coming - I don't want GAS to get me until I have this all figured out.
     
  14. Poki

    Poki TalkEmount Hall of Famer

    Aug 30, 2011
    Austria
    Ah, sorry, forgot the 18-105 is f/4 throughout the range.

    As for noise, forget the Bionz X - a processor, no matter how good it is, will never give you less noise in your RAW files (as they're obviously unprocessed). A6000 will have same high ISO IQ than 5N (or any second-gen or newer NEX camera, for that matter).

    G1X is a horrible camera - good IQ, but horrible viewfinder and bad to use (in my experience).

    I'd suggest - let your wife try out the 5N with, say, the 18-55 and 55-210 and compare it to what she experienced with the RX10. Then she probably knows which camera she prefers. IQ should be comparable for now.
     
  15. dbmiller

    dbmiller TalkEmount Top Veteran

    777
    Mar 2, 2012
    New England
    Agree on the G1X - Was hoping the MkII would be much better, but too similar on paper to make the cut.
    That's exactly what we did today. Went down the local park where some families/kids were sledding, and I let her shoot with the 18-55 and 55-210 on the 5n in iAuto mode. She did fine and was quite comfortable with it.
     
  16. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    I got into mirrorless because of size and I stayed because of focussing accuracy so I don't really care about body size; and a light body is still a light body and adds less to the payload in my bag, even if I carry a relatively heavy lens. The RX10 isn't an option for me, I don't want to work with such a small sensor after having tasted the delicacy of FF. All-in-all, the 70-200/4 doesn't look too bad. Mind you, the old Minolta MD 70-210/4 is about the same weight when the adapter for it is included.
     
  17. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Rumour says that the new 70-200 f/4 will cost $1500 :D
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1029862-REG/sony_sel70200g_70_200mm_f_4_5_6_g_lens.html
     
  18. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    I know, it's going to be expensive. But it's the only alternative on the A7 for the legacy glass I use now. Still, I'm not sure if I'm going to buy it. It seems that Canon will come up with a new 45mm TS lens and I might want to blow the money on that one. Can't do both this year unless I sell a lot of other stuff.
     
  19. davect01

    davect01 Super Moderator

    Aug 20, 2011
    Fountain Hills, AZ
    Dave
    I'd have a hard time convincing myself and my wife of any lens costing thus much.
     
  20. Bill

    Bill TalkEmount Veteran

    339
    Oct 22, 2012
    Brisbane, Australia
    Bill
    It should be kept in mind that the the 70-200/4 will also work on the NEX bodies (albeit as 105-300/4). There would be a bit of future-proofing in that, against the day when a move to FF might make more sense (a cash windfall, lower prices, non-squishy mounts, etc).