A7R service feedback !

Discussion in 'Sony Alpha E-Mount Cameras' started by izTheViz, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Folks,
    Back from a business trip in Cairo when I could enjoy some free time. I had both the A7 and A7R with me and looking at the photos I noticed that many of my A7R shots were not tack sharp which is not the case with the A7. The 16-35 was mounted on the A7R and the 55 on the A7, I know we can not compare but nevertheless I feel something is wrong.
    I got the A7R more than one month ago and never really noticed any issue. Even the shutter shock. I mean not obviously.
    Back home I put the 16-35 on both, both camera on tripod and started making some comparison shots.
    Well, the A7 gives me sharpest photos ! Tried autofocus, center and manual focus right edge and in all cases the A7 looks better.
    I had some silly issues with my A7R sensor, it is not mint and I guess I need to change the glass. Could this be an explanation to this ? Or I am actually experiencing the shutter shock syndrome ? Will make some further investigations at different shutter speeds to check.
    Still, I am disappointed...

    Manual Focus Bottom Right Corner of the Frame - 200% crop bottom right corner -Left Image A7R - Right Image A7
    Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 10.04.53.

    Manual Focus at the Bottom Right of the Frame - 200% crop Bottom Edge of the Image - Left Image A7R - Right Image A7
    Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 10.05.06.


    Autofocus Center. 200% crop Top Right Corner of the frame. Right Image A7R - Left Image A7
    Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 10.05.30.
    Autofocus Center. 200% crop Center of the frame. Right Image A7R - Left Image A7
    Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 10.05.52.
     
  2. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    Something doesn't look right indeed. For evaluating the possible effects of shutter shock I would not look at the corners, especially not with the FE 4/16-35mm at 35mm. The center crops of the A7R are distinctly unsharp; this same lens works very well on my A7R II which incidentally focusses much more accurately than the A7; your A7 shots do not look to be completely sharp either but that could be caused by the 200 % viewing. From what I have read, primarily on dpreview, hardly anyone claims to be affected by shutter shock with focal lengths of 35mm.

    To be sure: you did switch off OSS, did you? Especially the FE 4/16-35mm at 35mm can become unsharp at one edge, randomly, when OSS is used. Also important is to set Live View settings to ON, it makes the camera focus at shooting aperture; again, this can make a real difference with this lens at 35mm.

    Just to rule out focussing errors I'd set both cameras on a tripod, OSS off, focus manually in the center and bracket the focussing by making tiny steps with the focus ring, just to see if the camera/lens combo's are able to make a perfectly sharp picture at all. If the lens is OK, it surely should make a perfectly sharp picture at 35mm and f/8, mine does and I've seen many examples of others too, one here very recently made by @WoodWorks@WoodWorks with an A7II. I can't imagine that a problem with the sensor glass leads to the inability of making pictures with sharp features.
     
  3. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Ad,
    Thanks for your reply. So, following your advices I tried again, OSS was indeed ON on the A7R, I switched it off. Manual focus in the center. 2sec timer. Results are now better on the right side (with the OSS off I presume) but the A7 shots
    are still slightly sharper ?!! Seriously starting to despair...

    Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 12.39.11. Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 12.39.22. Capture d’écran 2016-06-01 à 12.39.43.
     
  4. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Tried with the 55/1.8. Less/almost no difference in sharpness although I'd say the A7 shots are neater again.
    Decided to send it to Sony since I now have 3 issues (the dirty and uncleanable sensor, a damaged mount screw and this focusing problem)
    Just wonder if the wobbly mount is not responsible.
     
  5. WestOkid

    WestOkid TalkEmount All-Pro

    Jan 25, 2014
    New Jersey, USA
    Gary
    I'm not sure what's going on there, but I don't believe it is shutter shock. It's rare that shutter shock occurs at that wide and a SS 3x the focal length. The other thing is that shutter shock is not consistent. You are having a problem on every shot.
    The a7r is more sensitive to movement than the a7. Is there wind, is your tripod solid? If you're positive everything is good with your test then send it back, It may be that sensor issue we discussed. Good Luck
     
  6. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    Bummer :(
    I'm not technically qualified to help but I hope you get this solved.
    Just to understand, did you buy the R new or used? If you bought it new with such issues as you describe (not mint sensor, wobly mount) then you definately need to send it back!
    From what I read, the R due to its higher resolution requires more effort and stability to get sharp shots (as Gary said).
     
  7. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Well I bought it used. And I screwed up with the sensor, it was mint. Bad luck with the blower when trying to remove a dust.
    Today there was no wind, the tripod is sturdy enough I guess. The fact that on every shot the A7 gives better result is abnormal. Something wrong for sure.
    Since I also tried to unmount the original mount (to put a tough emount) and could not remove it because of a screw that ended up damaged, I wonder if any consecutive misplacement has happened.
    Anyway, I already brought it to the dealer where I got it from. They'll send it to Sony.
    The guy told me they can make some adjustements with the 16-35 on to fix this focusing issue.

    Back to the A7 for a while now...
     
  8. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    I think that only works with DSLRs :)
    Or if you use a mirror adapter

    Fortunately you have a back up camera so no photo opportunities are gonna be lost ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks Super Moderator

    Dec 12, 2012
    Ashland, OR, USA
    David
    Oh man, that looks bad, Yannis. Here's hoping it comes back from service in perfect condition.
     
    • Appreciate Appreciate x 1
  10. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
    Best of luck, hope they can fix it for not too much money.
     
    • Appreciate Appreciate x 1
  11. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    That's the main point. For how much...
    In all cases, it needs repair, whether I keep it or try to sell it. Nobody will buy it with a dirty sensor.
    I looked back at the first images I took with it in Dubai and Oman and the right corner/edge are pretty in focus at f8. Globally I find the images sharp.
    Don't know, maybe this sensor stuff. Wait and see
    Thanks guys for your support. I am really unlucky with this camera...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    the way to eliminate the possibility of shutter shock is to shoot in better lighting conditions(think bright sunlight), and speed up the shutter... lens testing should never be done in the dark like that.

    you improved your technique in the second set of pics, by using one lens on both cameras, but the problem there is that the a7r pics are zoomed in more... i'm assuming that you didn't move the tripod? if the zooming happened in post, it throws away the higher pixel advantage, and makes the image softer... beyond that, i never use 200% for lens testing, due to artifacting that's caused by scaling the image beyond it's native size.

    whatever dust you had on the sensor can all be cleaned off with this sensor pen: Amazon.com : Lenspen LENSK1A Sensorklear Ii with Articulated Tip : Camera Cleaning Brushes : Camera & Photo i use this sensormag to check for dust, it's not a perfect solution, and it's hard to use, but it was cheap: Amazon.com : Carson Camera Sensor Magnifier - 4.5 x 30mm (SM-44) : Magnifiers : Camera & Photo

    the damaged screwhead is problematic because it introduces the possibility of metal particles going into the camera body, which could ruin the camera body due to shorting the electronics out, get into lenses, etc... best of luck, i hope that it all gets sorted out!
     
  13. Jefenator

    Jefenator TalkEmount Top Veteran

    876
    Nov 23, 2012
    Oregon, USA
    Jeff
    I think part of what you are experiencing may just be the limitations of the optics. If the lens you are using is not quite out-resolving the 24MP sensor [at certain settings in certain areas] the higher resolution sensor will be even more revealing of - and less flattering toward - those limitations.
    I noticed that quite a bit, comparing my A7 against the NEX-7. Same overall pixel count but over roughly half as big a surface area. Smaller pixels IME make for a fussier capture and 100% viewing experience. (That's one reason I think of 24MP for full-frame and 18MP for APS-C as being kind of a "sweet spot" where I can "let my gut out" so to speak.)
    Some feel it is acceptable - even desirable - to have the sensor outpacing the optics. (One could argue that the potential of the optics is getting wasted after the sensor's capacity for detail has been saturated.)
    There are other benefits of higher resolution besides just raw pixel peeping detail. (More dynamic range, different tonality, more sharpening/printing latitude, etc...) To get the most enjoyment out of the 7r, you might want to concentrate on those aspects a bit more and concentrate a bit less on viewing at 100%. (IME pixel peeping can be worthwhile for scrutinizing optics and shooting technique, but it can distract from the end result and become somewhat of a trap when I focus on that too much.)
     
  14. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Agree with many of you points.
    Those days we are truly missing light in Paris. Awful weather. In all cases it's probably not the shutter shock.
    Most of the times I don't pixel peep unless I really need to check something. Since many of my last photos looked unsharp I felt the need to make some checks and comparisons. Agree that 200% might be too much and the zooming on the A7r shots is due to the extra resolution.
    Also the 16-35 according to DXO has a 16 perceptual-Mpix sharpness whereas the 55 has a 29 P-Mpix sharpness. All in all which indeed this could explain what I am experiencing.
    Two options, get high end primes like the Loxia 21 or Batis 25 or switch to the A7II.
     
  15. Chris Munden

    Chris Munden TalkEmount Regular

    42
    May 13, 2016
    Peter Bower
    This is my concern with the A6000 24.MP sensor, very few lenses unless you spend more money than the camera is worth can do the sensor justice. I have a couple of options, but I'm tempted to down size on pixels. Sony seem to have been on a Pixel race introducing the 24 mp and higher but haven't really thought through with their lenses to match the sensors, they couldn't wait to put on the market. I guess in their haste to be number one, they forgot that people would like to build a system round these cameras without getting out a second mortgage. I agree with the last post, the sweet spot for me where sensor and lenses are not a huge miss match is any where between 10 and 18mp, may be 20 at a push. To name them Olympus 10mp, Nikon 12mp, Sony 16mp and Canon 18mp. These 4 have given me better and sharper pictures than any thing with higher pixels,

    Pete
     
  16. Dan Euritt

    Dan Euritt TalkEmount Regular

    191
    Jan 11, 2014
    i think that the things we see more clearly with higher pixel counts are lens defects, weak lens design, focusing errors, etc., some of which does get fixed by spending more on better glass... with a perfect lens: ""I figure that some of the finest lenses that we use are close to diffraction-limited at f/8. If that’s true, for 0.5 micrometer light (in the middle of the visible spectrum), a Q of 2 implies:
    Pitch = N /4
    At f/8 we want a 2-micrometer pixel pitch, finer than currently available for any available sensors sized at micro 4/3 and larger. A full frame sensor with that pitch would have 216 megapixels." How much sensor resolution do we need to match our lenses?

    if you look at the *center* mtf comparisons only, in this test of a7r vs. d800e, 5dmkiii, leica, etc., more pixels wins out every time, including when the lenses are swapped between cameras.
    the center/side measurements with adapters apply only to test charts, because adapters may have a very slight tilt, that won't affect real-world photos.
    Sony A7R: A Rising Tide Lifts All the Boats?
     
  17. izTheViz

    izTheViz TalkEmount Top Veteran

    537
    May 10, 2013
    Paris
    Yannis Marigo
    Guys,

    Just got the feedback from the service. They ask me 1070 Euros to fix the A7R !!!??? The price I bought it.
    -Sensor filter replacement,
    -Screw replacement
    -LCD replacement
    -and motherboard replacement
    What's worrying is that they say the camera does not read SD cards and they want to charge for replacement of the "motherboard".
    Wrong, it was working like charm when I sent it back
    LCD ? never asked for anything related to it. It has some light scratches and I put a protector screen.

    Asked for explanation but I don't like this at all...

    The nightmare continues....
     
  18. addieleman

    addieleman Passionate amateur

    Nov 13, 2012
    Netherlands
    Ad Dieleman
  19. WNG

    WNG TalkEmount All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2014
    Arrid Zone-A, USA
    Will
    ??? Sounds like they are ripping you off. Why would they replace items that weren't requested? I read 3rd party companies are commissioned to do warranty and other repairs.
    You might as well buy another one for that price....or have it returned, sell it as is and try your luck on another one or stick with the A7.
     
  20. NickCyprus

    NickCyprus Super Moderator

    Oct 11, 2012
    Cyprus
    Nick
    That's outrageous!!! I think you should call and threaten them that you'll take this matter to your lawyer